The Uncomfortable Truths About Scaling an ABA Organization

Simone 00:00:00 Welcome to the Flychain Reaction, a podcast designed to empower healthcare providers like you to master the business side of running a practice. Each episode sparks a chain reaction where actionable insights on financial management, operational efficiency, and growth strategies build upon each other, creating a powerful ripple effect to help your organization thrive. With Flychain's financial expertise and insights from industry leaders, we'll dive into everything you need to ignite success. Join us and let the Flychain reaction spark growth in your healthcare business.

Ethan 00:00:41 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Flychain Reaction. You know, we really kind of pride ourselves with this whole format of bringing in experts, partners, vendors, consultants, operators to really share their story, their journey, and trying to impart as much like wisdom, both maybe qualitative as well as tactical. And so I'm really excited today to be joined by Ben Wessels. How's it going, Ben?

Ben 00:01:09 Good, good. Happy to be here.

Ethan 00:01:10 Yeah. Well, just as a little background, we met a few months back and I think we share a mission and really wanting to help support independent small to medium size ABA therapy providers with a lot of things like operational, obviously on your side of the fence and then Flychain. But no, it was really cool, especially when we first started talking, sharing your journey and where you are today, but really where you started. Instead of me just describing like your resume, I would love maybe if you could just kind of tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself, where you got started, what you up to today, and then we can really dig into some more again, like tactical things, but would love, yeah, just to meet Ben.

Ben 00:01:53 Yeah. So, yeah, look, I have dedicated my career to this space. I fell into it, which I think is a story that a lot of folks freak out to me when they're talking about how they got into its ABA. And so, I was in my undergrad, it's getting a psych undergrad. And I was really just... I was expressing to an advisor that I felt a little lost, like, okay, I'm taking theoretical courses. How am I going to actually practically help anyone with this? And I got linked up with a BCBAD. This was in Chicago before Illinois passed an autism mandate.

Ethan 00:02:32 Yeah, what's the timeframe here, Ben?

Ben 00:02:33 We're 2008.

Ethan 00:02:35 Okay, cool.

Ben 00:02:36 And so what? About 18 years ago. And he was starting to do home-based ABA therapy. And I went and shadowed a session and immediately fell in love because, you know, two hours with this child, 150 plus data points at the end of the session, clarity on what we're trying to accomplish. And as I came back to those sessions and started to work with that child, I saw weekly, monthly, three months, six months, exactly what was being accomplished. I understood that if I saw a flat trend line, we had a problem and we needed to adjust and there was problem solving.

Ben 00:03:16 And this really just clicked with me, the data component of it, the objectivity of it, the clarity in it. And so I fell in love. And so I started really running down this path. Later that year, Illinois passed their autism mandate. And so suddenly the guy who I was working for, who was... he was a professor, he was doing some therapy on the side, home base, his phone started ringing off the hook. And he looked at me and said, Hey, listen, I didn't get into this to run a business. I don't really know how to run a business. Here's the intake phone, figure this out.

Ben 00:03:48 So I'm 19, 20. And I start taking calls from, from parents, most frequently mothers, and they're just crying on the phone, saying, look, suddenly after years and years of fighting, Blue Cross or whoever will cover this technically, but there's nobody available to help. Nobody picks up the phone. There's no network. What do I do? And so I just caught the fire to say, look, I'm going to start hiring behavior techs and anyone who shows themselves to be really solid and motivated, we're going to help them get in graduate school. And we're going to start just trying to homegrown BCBAs, give them great jobs on the back end and start making a difference here. And that really became a motivating factor for me.

Ben 00:04:32 So fast forward a few years, other states are starting to pass autism mandates. We're taking some of our initial folks and we're saying, hey, why don't you move to Detroit? We know you have family there. They just passed an autism mandate. We want to be first movers. And so we did that across the map at one point. We were across 16 states with a lot of folks who had just homegrown and moved and started building a community of providers in those areas.

Ethan 00:04:55 Amazing, man. How was it running one of these ABA therapy providers? And I always like to ask the question too, you were young, had a different background as well in terms of running an actual business. If you can kind of like knowing all the things you know now, tell your younger, more naive self, any things... if you could obviously go back in time and talk to yourself, what things would you want to tell them to say, like, watch out for this or do this? And it's really just a circuitous way of asking, what mistakes did you make?

Ben 00:05:36 All of them. I was young. I hadn't run a business before. And I think the thing that stands out to me is I would tell my younger self, get help and listen to experts. You know, I was just running at it. I had great people around me who I enjoyed working with. None of us really knew -- wonderful clinicians, but from a business perspective, none of us really knew \[inaudible\] doing. And it was new to everyone.

Ben 00:06:03 I mean, I remember there was a time when there was technically no network for BCBAs and Blue Cross Blue Shield. And so we would fax in a spreadsheet and we write the code 9999 on it or whatever. And then I immediately have to call and say, hey, I know this looks like fraud, but let me read you the autism mandate. And I promise this has to be covered and you have to pay for this, right? Like we had these bizarre experiences early days and you know, we had to fight and we had to push and everyone had to do that.

Ben 00:06:38 But over the years after that, right, the industry started to professionalize. We're still on that path to change, but processes started to come about, contracting, credentialing started to normalize. And yeah, I would tell my younger self like enlist help. There's a lot of really wonderful people out there. You don't have to do it all yourself. You don't necessarily have to hire a full-time person to do it. There's a lot of support out there. There's this entire industry now around supporting and doing excellent work so that they can focus on growing their business, building their culture, developing their team, setting strategy rather than how do I get this contract or how do I get this denial to go through?

Ethan 00:07:21 Yeah, makes total sense, And maybe that's a question on the back of that. And I can share some thoughts, too. But how has this industry really changed since that early days, 2008, 2009, to where it is today? And one thing from our purview, and obviously, Flychain falls into this camp, but it seems like in the last couple of years, while ABA is still a nascent industry relative to perhaps other health care industries, in the last couple of years, we've seen a lot of amazing companies start out to pick their different spots, whether that's new EMRs, revenue cycle management, credentialing, at least, Flychain, the finance side and accounting, bookkeeping.

Ethan 00:08:06 That was one big thing that I think I didn't appreciate, especially not being in ABA nearly as long as you have. But just in the last couple of years that Flychain has been around, we've just seen a bunch of really amazing companies that pop up and all have their little expertise. And so yeah, I know that's something that at least personally we've seen here. But we'd love to get your thoughts on what's changed. And then also maybe like, where do you see things going? Like what does the next maybe couple of years look like in this space? And I know that that's probably a very loaded question and we don't have a crystal ball. But I'd be curious to get your thoughts too, as someone who's just been, you know, in the trenches for the better part of two decades.

Ben 00:08:50 Yeah, so much has changed. I mean, this is not the industry that it was when I got in. And you know, a lot of that has been really positive. I think is things that providers have to be aware of and planning for. I would say one of the really positive changes is options. What I mean by that is you have technology providers. Just every need that you might have and whatever's most important to you, you can find those folks. You can find, thinking of the center reaches, the passages, the \[inaudible\], all of these EHRs, EMRs.

Ben 00:09:32 If you're really concerned about your billing and that's top, you've got the group that you need to go with. If you're concerned about scaling and eventually selling and being able to roll up into another group, you've got a really good option for that. If you want flexibility or customer service, you've got a group for that. And so you can really do your diligence instead of saying like, well, you better be on center reach. That's your only option. And like, I'm not here to tell you what you should go with. I'm just saying practically instead of it's like we have one option, there are a ton of options and you can sort of decide where do I want to go and where do I want to do.

Ben 00:10:04 I think Flychain is a great example of that too, right? Like when I first started, I wasn't even using QuickBooks. I was using Quicken. My CFO, I've known him for 18 years. He's worked with me for 10 years and he gives me the hardest time about what that looked like when he came, you know. But then it was, you know, QuickBooks or a local accountant. I didn't really have anyone who was specialized in the place that you could go to. And that is such a positive change.

Ben 00:10:35 You know, I think about consultants in the space. Now they're going through the whole life cycle, right? They built a company or they built multiple companies that sold that company or they still sit on the board of that company. But they've been through the whole process and they can now pinpoint where you are and help you see the steps to get to the next spot.

Ethan 00:10:54 Right. It's like now for almost the first time or maybe second time, like you've had people that have gone through it. \[inaudible\] probably when it was like, you know, the wild west and there weren't options, but now you've got this like group of folks, consultants, vendors that have had like this treasure trove of experience and have either built solutions or know how to solve those problems when it's maybe like thinking about more like a consultant.

Ethan 00:11:17 One thing that like, I just wanted to double back on because it was fascinating to hear and I'd be curious to hear how this maybe has changed. But you mentioned the homegrown VCBA. And obviously, staff retention is always a hot topic here, shortage of clinicians, generally speaking. Curious if you're seeing successful business still do the homegrown approach there because I think back then you were\... as you said, kind of putting them through grad school and things. It seems like maybe there's more like more like proper paths, you know, like a more well defined trajectory there.

Ethan 00:11:58 So I'd be curious, like how you're seeing that split, like what worked well there for you. And then for other ABA providers that are maybe struggling to either keep talent or hire new talent\... how did you like navigate that back in the day, then also like, what are you seeing today for like those retention things? We see all sorts of stuff, like people setting up 401ks and things like that and try and help kind of like retain that talent. But yeah, I'm curious there, cause I go to these conferences and you see a lot of like graduate programs that are, you know, kind of like, pitching to RBT and folks that, you know, want to take it up a level. So yeah, anything you can like share on that side, I think is just incredibly valuable because it's\... tends to be top of mind for everybody.

Ben 00:12:42 Yeah, yeah. And when I think about graduate students and future BCBAs, I go back to options, right? So there's now so many programs you can go through, but more importantly than that, in my view, is options for supervision and getting your hours and getting really good training. I mean, the stats still are pretty crazy. I know a couple of years ago, it was 80 % of BCBAs have less than five years of experience. And then if you talk to those folks, they'd also say, my first two years were brutal because I wasn't prepared to be a BCBA, not because my coursework wasn't good, but because I wasn't actually doing the work.

Ethan 00:13:24 Went in the environment doing the work, doing the blocking and tackling.

Ben 00:13:29 Exactly. Yeah. And so I see a lot of groups that we work with who they understand that they need to home grow BCBAs if you're going to grow, that's\... not that you shouldn't hire outside the BCBAs, right? It's a dual approach, but they know that they need to have these folks, but they either don't have a plan or they don't have the person thinking about it because they're doing so many other things to actually prepare these future BCBAs to step into a role.

Ben 00:13:57 And so the big miss is, and I did this, if I go back 10 years. At one point I had over 100 graduate students on staff. Wow. And we were just like, this is amazing. Look at all of these students. But if I'm being honest, we didn't have a good training program for them. And we also didn't have a pathway. We didn't know, okay, this person's testing in nine months. What role in what clinic are they going to move into and therefore who is their mentor, who's preparing them? And then a year after they pass, what does that role look like for them?

Ben 00:14:30 We did not have a good path for that and what ends up happening is if you're training up way too many graduate students and you're not doing it well, those folks all end up leaving. And what you've done is take a ton of your BCBA's time to try to prep those people to not even have them be part of your organization going forward and everybody's frustrated. And so have a plan. You might only need two graduate students on staff, right? That's okay as long as you're doing a really good job. You might need 50 on staff. That's okay as long as you're actually prepping them and you have a plan for them, that's what you need to do for their sake and for your own.

Ethan 00:15:06 Yeah, I love that. It's like just making them feel like seen, heard and respected with like, hey, we have a place here for you today, but also we have a place here for you to the future. And like, this is what that path looks like should you want to go down it. Would you say, and I think just to double click on that, like as you were running the business and scaling\... I think there's a few different levers to pull to try and solve scaling challenges. Obviously, systems and everything, making sure you're tracking stuff. That's the Flychain plug yet again.

Ethan 00:15:39 I think what I've seen among our call 200 customers or so is the folks that really spend the time to invest in their employees and develop that culture that it's not just like a\... you know, a treadmill of clinicians that they treat them almost like as commodities rather than people and employees and part of the entire community. I'd be curious, like when you were scaling, especially early on, you said you didn't have a lot of those kinds of systems in place\... how important was it to try and really like understand the employees, their professional goals, develop mentorship programs?

Ethan 00:16:16 And, you know, maybe prior to doing that and then implementing it, did you see like way better retention. And yeah, I'd ask that first. And then like, was there anything else that you were doing? Maybe aside from like mentoring or like a cash bonus that, you know, was trying to really, you know, make those employees see, feel seen and heard and want to stick around and grow with the organization.

Ethan 00:17:18 Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I think like there's that level of trust that really does need to be established. But I love what you said there too. It's like that top-down management, basically being like a present owner, right. And being there to really communicate like the vision, the updates to make sure everyone's kind of on the same page.

Ben 00:17:36 We went through this really difficult learning process. So when we were just in Chicago, in Michigan even, we were, you know, maybe a hundred\... just over a hundred staff. I was hiring everyone. I knew everyone. I was going to events. You know, I was very visible and our retention was incredible. 15 to 18% turnover every year. Like really felt good about what we had going on. And we started adding more states. And I opened up clinics in India. I opened up clinics in Australia. I opened up clinics in Indonesia. \[inaudible\] in Abu Dhabi. I own a coffee business in India.

Ben 00:18:28 I didn't know that. It's fun. a passion project. I can for sure talk the whole time about that. And so what I did was I put in place an executive team. Yep. And felt like, that\... they can replicate that. It'll be fine. And I underestimated the amount of cultural change that would create when you go from like dedicated founder, I know everybody to executive team. They're getting to know everybody and there's a different level of give that folks get when it's like, I've known\... I know Ben. I've known him five years. It's a different field. Still owned the company, but I wasn't there. I was working on other things.

Ben 00:19:14 Underestimated what it would take to sort of rebuild that trust, what the level of visibility needed to be on that team, what it would take to, while we're still growing like crazy, also maintain that culture. And went through a couple rough years on that and then decided we're coming back to the basics. Take to run a successful ABA company beyond providing really quality care and it's relationships. So relationships with your staff, relationships with your parents, relationship to the child, and then relationship to your external stakeholders. So that's your payers, that's your vendors. Really being present and being mindful of those relationships. If you're doing well by all of those relationships, I feel strongly that your business will thrive.

Ethan 00:20:03 Yeah, thrive. And at the very least, I think be very resilient, right? If you check the boxes and are partnering with the right folks and also keeping a really close eye on delegation. Delegation, I think, is something that we see a lot of our customers struggle with because, especially if they're the founder of that business, it's their baby, right? And they want to be involved in everything, but there gets a point where you're maybe even still managing a caseload or what have you, but there always comes a point where it's not sustainable anymore.

Ethan 00:20:36 And so for those folks, Ben, for the folks that\... maybe let's just pick an example like, you're now at like a million bucks, million and a half in revenue a year, single location, but you want to expand and grow, what are some of the maybe things for those owners that are feeling pulled in every direction but don't want to like maybe put their baby in someone else's hand for the time being? And to be honest, I have a lot of empathy. Like I'm in the same way, right? We're growing in Flychain and I love talking to every customer and getting involved and that's not going to change. But there's other things that I feel I need to offload, but don't feel comfortable about it.

Ethan 00:21:17 How did you navigate that within the organization? Was it more meetings with people and spending more time to really educate them as you're delegating something that you maybe wholly owned beforehand? We'd love to understand that because I think\... It's yeah, systems are great to scale, it really\... these are all\... we're people. Like these are people businesses through and through, right? Like all \[inaudible\] payroll. You see patients, that's your customer. Yeah. Just talk to us a little bit about that. I think it's just like, will resonate with our audience.

Ben 00:21:51 Yeah. And I think the place I would start. So if you're, that owner and like you said, you're in about a mil of revenue, you're one clinic and you're thinking about expanding. I mean, the first question, like really honest conversation you have to have with yourself, your leadership team is what do we actually want? Because there are things that come in the box. If you're doing a meal of bread and you're collecting well and you have an efficient team, you can have a really nice business, earn a really nice living, do really, really good work, and love the people you work with. That could be a really, really good outcome. Right? I think there's this\... as a founder, I get it. I get it with all of the businesses that I honor and invested in. There's this urge to grow and to scale and to take it to the next level.

Ethan 00:22:40 I also feel like it's natural too, because there's such demand. And so you see like, oh, there's a huge opportunity out in front of me. So the market exists. It's how do you get the business in a place that can actually take on that market without getting too over your skis, blowing up. So didn't mean to interrupt.

Ben 00:22:59 No, that's exactly right. so if you want\... maybe your goal is, well, I want three clinics, right? And I think I can, when they're all full, I can be doing five, six million in those three clinics. That is my goal. Well, you have to be honest with yourself about what that means, because right now you might be cash flowing nicely and paying yourself well, but growth is expensive. You're going to self fund that out of your business. You have to be just comfortable with I don't know what things will look like in two years. I can have goals for those things, but change is inevitable. There's going to be some bumps along the way. We're going to have to spend a bunch of money on fit out. And is that truly what I want?

Ben 00:23:36 If I look honestly at the next three years of my life, am I okay with the scenario where maybe I don't actually cashflow for those three years? What I really want is that end point where I have those three clinics and I'm scaling and all of that. And if that's true, that's great. That's fine. But then commit to it. It's not going to be easy along the way and be comfortable with that. Because I think one of the hardest things for founders, especially when you're in that like, okay, I'm small, but I want to go to medium or I want to take that next step, is just the emotion that can be tied up in that.

Ben 00:24:07 You get this idea in your head of what you're going to do and when you're going to hit it. And when inevitably that doesn't happen because you're biggest payers starts throwing a wrench in things or key employees get an amazing offer from somewhere else. They start their own thing. That's going to change. As a founder, are you flexible enough to just say, okay, things changed. This is my reality now. How do I pick up change strategy and get run?

Ethan 00:24:33 It's like flexibilities is paramount, especially I agree. Like when you're growing, it inherently becomes more risky. You're doing that. You need money to grow, right? As you mentioned, growth is expensive. And it's like, I think one thing that we always try and emphasize is like prudent growth. So you're at one location, you want to get to three, don't open two right away, right? Like let's scale into this. And I think it's also to your point, it's being honest, like emotionally as a business owner, am I willing to take this risk? Do I believe in it? But I always like to say like the best laid plans generally do fall apart in this industry.

Ethan 00:25:10 And what I mean by that is what you said, people leave, payers have issues. And so if you spread yourself too thin and try and grow one little, you know, hiccup can actually set you back way, way, way beyond where you were just at that single location. And I think it's like measure twice, cut once, really have that plan. But in that plan, what we like to do is like bake in some problems. We say running an ABA business is like you should operate under like Murphy's law. Like what can go wrong is probably going to go wrong at some point in time. And you just hope it doesn't all happen at once.

Ethan 00:25:46 I think like being both like being honest with yourself, understanding where you're at today and where you want to go, but what you need to get there, baking in some, you know, potholes along the way. You know, I think like it's just like incredibly good advice, especially when\... I froth at the mouth at opportunity and you want to go full steam ahead into it. And you know, is that the best thing for my sanity, our company, our culture, et cetera. So I think it's a\... there's both like a math and a science to it.

Ben 00:26:17 That's right. That's right. I really want people to hear is if you're in that spot or you're like, okay, I am stretched too thin, but there is opportunity and I don't want to stop, then you have to take honest stock of who you have and who you're with. There's this natural desire, especially among\... Look, I went to school, I thought I was going to be a social worker. Folks in the human services profession, they got into this to do good. And so they are very frequently, incredibly empathic. And they see people and want those people to have opportunities and change. That is a good desire. There's room for that.

Ben 00:26:55 But also, if you're going to triple the size of your company, it's very likely you don't actually today have the people that you need in leadership to do that. You might need a COO who's done this before. You might be the founder who can't actually scale this thing. You can be involved, but you need a CEO. That might be the case. Take honest stock of your people and take honest stock of your ability to get those folks where they need to be.

Ben 00:27:23 You might be an incredible clinical mentor, but that doesn't mean that you can take your ops admin who's been doing a great job with scheduling and managing the front desk and turn them into a CEO. Like I see that all the time. Maybe, maybe that person can, but if you have big plans, you probably need to go out and find a professional COO who can help you get to those next steps.

Ethan 00:27:43 Yeah. It's like someone who's done it before, someone who's, you know, gotten burned, done the brain damage. I always\... One thing we always say, especially when we're having conversations with customers about growth, we'll talk to them about how are going to capitalize this, make sure you're well-funded and your numbers make sense to actually grow at this point. But we always are like, what is your superpower? What is your superpower at that organization? Because as you're growing, focus on those one, two, three things that are your bread and butter and then try and delegate elsewhere.

Ethan 00:28:16 And again, it's like looking in the mirror and saying, hey\... And every owner is different, right? Like people have more clinical focus. Some actually are like very operationally focused as well. And it's like taking inventory of what your skillset is, the people around you and where do you need to double down on what you're good at and then find folks that are equally as good at what you're good at, but in a different sort of specialty.

Ethan 00:28:39 You know, Ben, I know we've been talking a lot about your experience as an owner, but we've met after that. And so I'd love to, you know, like just learn a little bit more if you can talk about what you're up to today and how the, you know, your history and your experience as an owner that has scaled and done such amazing, amazing things. What was the impetus for you to start what you're doing today? And yeah, we'd love just to learn more about Arohana and all the things that you're up to.

Ben 00:29:11 Sure. Yeah. So like you said, current venture is Arohana Support Services. The reason that exists is because I felt for a long time that if 18 years ago I had had the right support around me to just say, I know the answer to that question, not pay for the next three months, I'm going to guess at it and try to figure it out eventually on a roundabout way, I'll figure it out. I could have run at things faster. I could have saved a lot of my staff's time. I could have saved a lot of stress. Like things just would have naturally progressed in a different way.

Ben 00:29:46 At the end of the day, I said it earlier, I thought years ago I was going to be a social worker, like an empathic person. I want to see founder led organizations thrive. And given the last 18 years, I just feel like I and the team I've built around me are uniquely positioned to say, everyone, every business in this space, you have to contract, you have to credential to get paid, right? The flames have to go out, the problems that arise have to get solved.

Ben 00:30:13 And so we exist. Those are our primary things. We also do quality assurance, schedule, other support services. But primary work we do is contracting, credentialing, billing. And our goal is to just take that pain off of owner's plates so that they can do these things that might be building that team around them, or identifying that next leader, identifying that next location, right? The real work, not the administrative burden that we all bear, we want to take that off of folks' plates. I've taken my CFO over a bunch of my ventures with me. I've taken my ops director who's helped me launch these.

Ethan 00:30:49 We've met them. They're great.

Ben 00:30:50 They're phenomenal. My project manager who I call the detail side of my brain. Like we built a team of folks who not only understand billing, contracting, credentialing, but they actually also understand whether you're pre-startup, pre-revenue or you're \$30 million in on revenue, like we understand where you're at in that phase and sort of unique solutions that you likely need in order to \[inaudible\].

Ethan 00:31:15 We love that. And that's why this relationship has been so great. We just share a very similar customer base. And we kind of alluded to it before where we now there's enough folks out there that kind of specialize in their little piece of the puzzle here. And we all\... it's really been cool to see in the last like two, three years of as, you know, being in this seat at Flychain, how willing all partners are to work with one another too. Cause it really does feel like we're establishing\... it takes the village to run one of these and we're all just our respective hubs around the, you know, the business itself.

Ben 00:31:51 That's been fun for me too, right? Like at this stage now, I don't feel like with our Arohana, Oh, I've built a new Island, because there are other services like Flychain, all of these great technology systems, we are all able to support each other in supporting our clients, which are the founders and owners.

Ethan 00:32:06 Yeah, totally. I think it's been also cool, like you alluded to back in the day of options, right? You kind of had one option historically, and now with a lot of new other options for you, you can kind of tailor your business to meet you where you are. And I think that's been really cool to see whether you're a startup, mid-stage, growth stage, what have you. There is a lid for every pot. But yeah, Ben, well, thank you so much for joining this. It was a lot of fun. We'll do another one for sure. You're just a wealth of knowledge, but yeah, how can listeners find you? And I think that would be a great little plug here for you at the end. I know you focus on that kind of same small to medium size, ABA therapy business. But yeah, how can people find you, reach out to you? Because you do great by all of our shared customers.

Ben 00:33:00 Yeah, they can find us at arohanasupportservices.com. That's an easy way to just see what we're up to. You can reach out to us through there. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm active. I'll accept your request. We can have a conversation. I'm always happy just to hop on. And even if you're not going to use our services, just chat about what you're trying to accomplish.

Ethan 00:33:19 Like a free consultation to a certain extent. Awesome, Ben. Well, again, so grateful for your time. Really appreciate you sharing a little bit more about your story. We'll do this again for sure. And with that, I'll let you go, man. Have a holiday season.

Ben 00:33:33 Yeah. Good to see you.

Ethan 00:33:35 Take care.

Simone 00:33:36 Thanks for tuning into the fly chain reaction. If you'd like to keep the conversation going, feel free to contact us at info@flychain.us or schedule a demo through our website at www.flychain.us. See you next time!